Michael Wenderoth on the “What would So-and-So do?” hack to get unstuck

We all get stuck sometimes. And it doesn't help that we solve problems the same way over and over again.

In this episode, executive coach Michael Wenderoth offers a hack to get us out of that rut: "What would so-and-so do"? Pick someone who is very different from you. A quick 5 minute brainstorm can generate a diversity of ideas!

Michael Wenderoth is an Executive Coach who focuses on building power, navigating politics and managing up. Using research-based methods, he helps executives rethink their assumptions about power and authenticity to become more effective at work.

In addition to his global coaching practice, Michael lectures on leadership at IE Business School (Spain), coaches in executive education at Stanford Business School, and spent more than 20 years in senior roles in high growth companies in China, the U.S. and Europe.

He holds an MBA from Stanford Business School, a BA from Carleton College, and has published in Harvard Business Review (HBR), HBR Ascend and Forbes. Website and Bio.

Resources:
Michael's Forbes article about constraints

Transcript:

Celine: Last time I had the pleasure of interviewing Michael Wenderoth. We have him back again today. Michael is an executive coach in Europe who works globally and is a good friend of Agnes and I from our Stanford MBA days. His focus is specifically on power and politics in organizations, and he has another great EQ hack for us.

Agnes: Hi, Michael, it's so great to have you again on our podcast. 

Michael: Thanks for inviting me back.

Agnes: So yes, Michael, could you remind us a bit about your background? 

Michael: Sure. I'm an executive coach and you know, I became an executive coach out of a desire to help people get ahead, who, who weren't getting it. Usually because they don't understand power, or they're uncomfortable with navigating politics at work.

And, you know, I saw, and I see, a lot of talent not rise to positions because they're holding themselves back. They simply don't learn. Some of the, what I would say are universal rules or strategies that can help you rise in organizations. And given that we have, you know, if you look around, we have a lot of incompetent and terrible leaders,

I want to help bring some of the more talented people, responsible people, up. They just need to make a few shifts because you know, you first need to get up there. So that's what I do, and what I enjoy.

Agnes: I love that Michael is here. He and I are colleagues and we know each other from business school and I was so tickled me that in the beginning, I always thought that he and I had a very different approaches, I'm more kind of touchy- feely; I'd probably tell people I know that he's more Machiavellian, but as we you know, got to know each other and got to know our work, we have very actually similar views on power.

And I've learned quite a lot from him. And he has shifted my view on people skills and how important power is. So it's been just he has influenced quite a bit the way I coach on making sure to make sure that people, especially women and people minorities, be more strategic of the way they think about power and influence.

Michael, could you share with us, you've shared a wonderful hack the first time you came in, and I wonder if you could share another concept and another hack that might benefit our listeners. 

Michael: Sure. And before I go into that hack, I just also want to say, Agnes thank you. I think sometimes people, when we write stuff, people kind of, you know, deliberately create dichotomies and so forth.

And a lot of what we say and do are, you know, very similar. But sometimes people kind of place us in, in very different places. So I've also learned a lot and benefited when I started my executive coaching journey. So I want to thank you for that. 

In terms of you know, a hack that I think will help a lot of people is a very quick exercise you can do, that I call "What would so-and-so do?" Okay. What would so-and-so do? And let's say you're stuck on a problem, a decision, or what you need to do next, right. This could be in work or it could be kind of a life decision. When you get in that situation, pick someone who thinks or acts differently from yourself and simply ask yourself, what would so and so, this person, do?

Okay. And again, I'm a fan of writing stuff down, which we talked about before, write down what that person's approach to this problem or decision would be and time box yourself. Just do it over a couple of quick minutes. And I'd in fact, recommend you do this. You pick another person, right? Someone who's probably not in that same, you know, category; someone very different.

And the background here is just, we get stuck because we're creatures of habit, right? Our brains, if you think about it, like we're just like a railroad track. And so we tend not to see outside of that. And this, in some cases benefits us a lot, but it often forces us to kind of discard stuff or, you know, this whole area of creative solutions.

You know, research even shows that like master chess players they'll, they won't see certain moves because they see patterns and they get into that way of playing. And we all have kids. So think about your kids, right? They don't know the rules, they don't know the box. And so they're very creative.

So you have to kind of force yourself to jump outside of that railroad track. And this does that, right? Because it creates this constraint; we're too close, you know, emotionally. And we think of like ourselves. So if we think of our situation as another person, that constraint of not thinking like us actually frees us up and I can reference this article I wrote in Forbes about how COVID actually in locked downs actually forced a lot of people very quickly to get.

So those few minutes in this exercise and I time box it, right. This isn't meant to be a long exercise; may not actually lead you to the exact final solution, but it opens up the solution space and it's surprisingly effective. I've used a lot. I had a period in my career where I did a lot in innovation: teaching, training et cetera on that.

This is a very effective technique to help you kind of quickly jump outside the railroad tracks. 

Agnes: Michael, can you share you, you mentioned that you used it a lot in your own personally, can you share an example of a personal example when you used it or a time when one of your clients used this successfully?

Michael: Yeah. I'm happy to do that. You know, because a lot of the coaching that I do and I think a lot of the coaching that we do is, is sometimes having people confront kind of uncomfortable behaviors that they're not used to doing. So there's behavioral change involved. And so I find this very effective and, you know, one example that comes to mind is a client was stuck on how she could get visibility to a senior executive and pitch a particular.

So she was more introverted. Also had a boss who kind of blocked, even stole a lot of her ideas. And so previously I had exposed her to Keith Ferrazzi, right? Never read alone. He's kind of a classic extrovert. And he's a consummate kind of creative networker. I recommend all of his books. So I simply asked her, you know, what would Keith do in this situation blocked by the boss? Right? We want to pitch this upwards and really quickly she rattled off some ideas, right? It was getting out of her own, you know, mindset. Well, he then drew a way to engineer a way to bump into that senior executive, right in the morning coffee room, or he joined a particular committee, which would give him access to that important executive.

And again, The exercise, right? She didn't go with those necessarily, you know, those approaches, but it freed her up to see new ones. So she eventually kind of said, you know, I need help or support. So she realized, oh, there's someone else high in the organization who, you know, was a classmate of mine. Let me go talk to that individual to help me make sure this idea gets seen.

And so it wouldn't have occurred to her before. And this helped her, you know, jumped out and I've seen this in a lot of ways. It's not necessarily someone famous or so forth. I think those can be, those are kind of colorful personalities, but another client thought of his bolder self, 10 years earlier in his career.

And he realized he had lost some of that boldness and all he needed to do was channel and think about what his 10 year prior self would have done; or even the guy he doesn't particularly like in the organization who was very political and very savvy at stuff who he kind of dismisses, but that guy is very good at getting visibility.

So what would that guy do? And maybe he's not going to do it, but it gets him to force and forces him to think in a different way. Those are two examples. 

Agnes: Thank you so much for sharing these specific examples. I love this hack. And actually, I remember using it at one time. I think last year when I had to present on zoom and I think it was my first time doing it, you know, like dumb UPenn and Meg doing something kind of outside my CLA my comfort zone.

And I remember channeling Ed Batista, which is someone, someone you know, a mentor of mine, a coach who's had a lot more experience than I did. And I said, what would Ed do? And they were like, he would be bold and fun and playful with this. And that took away all the anxiety. And I just stepped in with a different energy.

Michael: Absolutely.

Agnes: Thank you so much. Michael, for sharing. What would be a way for people to remember this hack? When they are in a situation when where it could be applicable? 

Michael: I think it's just, it's a very simple, right. I think that the hacks that are simple and easy to remember: What would so-and-so do. And I don't think there's a lot of complexity to this.

I think if you simply remember that, you kind of pull yourself out of situation, and you time box yourself; five minutes can generate a lot of new thinking to get you, you know, moving. I mean you could, if you, I sometimes keep a little stack, right? Like post-its of, you know, creative cards and, you know, having those and then just like you're stuck there at your desk or you're thinking, or in a group,

you know, just pull one out randomly. I mean, I had to do this cause I worked for years as an innovation trainer with companies or with MBAs. And so when you're facilitating that, you need to kind of quickly move them, and get them thinking. And if you're, you know, this idea that you were saying too about, if you have kind of that playful mindset, time box it, it will lead somewhere in terms of opening up new ways of thinking. 

Agnes: Thank you so much. And I know you're a big fan of so priming and you mentioned it in our earliest episode and I I love this hack also as a way to, as you mentioned, it's such a simple way to prime you when you have a difficult conversation or you're finding yourself in a challenging situation or stressful one.

So it's wonderful. That is such a simple hack can change, you know, your mindset, and also your physiology and help you to really step outside your comfort zone and channel more ways to be bolder in many ways. Michael, what would be as we close this session, Do you have any more? I know we talked last time.

What is one advice you would give to your younger self? Do you have any other nuggets of wisdom you would like to share? 

Michael: It's it's very much related to this. And one of the things I really picked up from the period of my career I spent doing a lot of design thinking and innovation, which is a very simple thing I think I should have done earlier in my career.

It's but it's this idea that "action leads to insight". That simply doing more will, will, will lead to new ideas, right. Even if you so-called fail that, you know, get, get out of your head and start to do things because it opens up a lot of, you know, movement. And I see this a lot in my coaching, you know, we're just sitting here talking, theorizing about stuff.

It frequently doesn't necessarily lead to them doing things. So action leads to insight. That's the big one that I would say. 

Agnes: Oh, I couldn't agree more. I appreciate that. We both have a bias for action. Michael, remind us, remind the listeners listeners, how can they find you? 

Michael: Sure. 

Well, first of all, the, this article I mentioned is on Forbes which I really kind of talk about how to, what leads to creativity? You know, I look at Jon Stewart, I look at other different people and cite some of the research, which in and of itself that has some hacks and why I think actually COVID and lockdowns, you know, there's a lot of upside to it or a lot of things that it has caused. In terms of how to reach me, through LinkedIn or my website ChangWenderoth.com.

So those have my views on leadership and how to reach out to me if you're interested. 

Agnes: Wonderful. We'll put all this contacts in the show notes and yes we are so excited to have had you twice on our podcast. And thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, Michael. 

Michael: Thank you. And thank you both for inviting me.